Lex Fridman - Jimmy Wales

1) Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, talks about how in the early days of Wikipedia, it was very accessible and easy to contribute, leading to a lot of excitement and participation. He shares a story about being the first person to add an entry about Robert Allman winning a Nobel Prize, and how collaborative editing allowed people to improve on entries. Wales also talks about the technical discussions that took place during the early days of Wikipedia around things like neutrality and what makes an encyclopedia, as well as technical details like XML and data variables. He also mentions some of the early technical challenges with things like logins and making links, highlighting that simplicity and accessibility were key priorities.

2) Jimmy explains how he didn't consider that the German keyboard layout doesn't have a square bracket when creating Wikipedia's software. German users had to find ways to work around it, like using alt codes or copying and pasting a square bracket. He also touches on the philosophical question of what an encyclopedia is, explaining that an encyclopedia is a summary of all human knowledge, including recipes in some French language encyclopedias, which is unusual in English language encyclopedias like Wikipedia. Finally, he talks about the staggering number of articles in Wikipedia, currently at 6.66 million articles in English containing over 4.3 billion words.

3) Jimmy discusses the deep philosophical issue of notability on Wikipedia, which raises the question of how to draw the line on what constitutes an entry. Although some argue that there should be no limits, there is a limit. Biographies of living persons require extra care as they can be damaging if incorrect, so Wikipedia tries to be more careful in this area. The term notability is problematic because it can feel insulting to people who are considered not noteworthy, which is why Wikipedia aims for verifiability as a way to determine what makes an encyclopedia entry.

4) Jimmy discusses how biographies on Wikipedia must be written with human dignity in mind and how undue weight on certain controversies can be a problem. He gives an example of a council member whose son was arrested for DUI, and how this was given too much weight in the council member's biography. Wales also talks about the importance of community health and how people react to criticism or concerns around a certain topic. He acknowledges that reference material can be difficult to get right, but it's important to contextualize appropriately and not be defensive in the face of criticism or aggression.

5) Jimmy discusses the challenges of maintaining accurate information on Wikipedia amid the rise of clickbait headlines and unreliable sources, such as tabloid newspapers like the Daily Mail. He explains that while such sources are not entirely fake news, they tend to run hyped-up stories and have political biases, making them less reliable for encyclopedic content.

6) Jimmy Wales and Lex Fridman discuss the importance of being able to discern biased and clickbait language from neutral language, particularly when it comes to Wikipedia entries and news articles. Wales talks about a potential tool for identifying and rewording biased language in Wikipedia entries, as well as a hypothetical tool that would identify inaccuracies in entries based on their sources.

7) Jimmy discusses the pros and cons of large language models like GPT-4. He mentions that these models are trained on content from sources like Wikipedia and this is completely fine with their open and free licensing philosophy. However, he does worry about proper attribution and grounding to maintain good intellectual practice and use sources similar to those on Wikipedia. One of the biggest flaws of GPT-4 is that it can make things up just to be hopeful and amiable and doesn't know or care about the truth. Wales hopes that GPT-5 to 7 will produce more accurate results and higher levels of accuracy in the future.

8) Jimmy discusses how Wikipedia handles language differences and biases. He believes that adding a notice of disputed neutrality to certain sections can be useful, and suggests using tools to summarize discussions and suggest warnings. He also provides an example of a controversial topic and how Wikipedia strived for neutrality when discussing language differences. Overall, Wales emphasizes the importance of remaining neutral in language to better inform readers and build trust within the Wikipedia community.

9) Jimmy discusses how some aspects of Wikipedia, such as categories and article titles, can be tricky to handle. Categories can lead to labels that stick, and certain words like "criminal" or "alt-right" can be charged and have a lot of power. Wales also addresses accusations of left-leaning political bias on Wikipedia, stating that while there may be specific cases of bias, this is part of the challenge and process of Wikipedia, and anyone can challenge or edit an entry.

10) Jimmy discusses the potential for bias in Wikipedia in terms of people with fringe viewpoints feeling that their perspectives are not reported as mainstream. While Wales acknowledges the possibility of this kind of bias, he argues that Wikipedia is generally good at providing balanced perspectives on politically controversial topics. He notes that bias may be more likely to persist in obscure or non-political areas, such as with the very positive entries about Japanese anime on the site. As an example of a contemporary topic that has been handled well by Wikipedia, he cites the question of the efficacy of masks during the COVID-19 pandemic, which was highly politicized.

11) Jimmy discusses how personal and political biases can seep into platforms like Wikipedia and Silicon Valley. While he hopes Wikipedia remains unbiased, he recognizes that the personal and political leaning of its editors probably leans left. Similarly, Silicon Valley must create platforms that are open and unbiased even though there is a bias for the engineers who create them. Wales believes that it is possible to create all kinds of perspectives and battle them out in an open platform.

12) Jimmy Wales and Lex Fridman discuss the tendency towards rewarding snark over productive discussion in social media. They note that this mechanism can often lead to viciousness and is exacerbated by social media algorithms that prioritize engagement over quality content. While Facebook has begun to prioritize higher quality content and remove those who spout hatred or misinformation, Wales notes that the business model of some social media companies may make it difficult to prioritize long-term health over short-term profit.

13) Jimmy expresses his concern about Facebook's political advertising and Mark Zuckerberg's unprecedented level of power, which makes it hard to break any control he has over the company. Wales believes that a moratorium on all political advertising could be a possible solution to the issue Facebook faces with deep, hard questions about dark money, false narratives, and questionable ads. He thinks that Facebook should rein in some things that are making money for them but giving them a bad reputation in the long term. He also suggests a new system that focuses on trust and optimizes for long-term mental well-being and balance rather than engagement.

14) Jimmy discusses his experience with Twitter's content moderation, specifically in regards to false accusations against him. Despite having personal connections with Jack Dorsey and other members of the Twitter board, he found the system to be broken and not working effectively for individuals who are being abused or harassed on the platform. He suggests that Twitter could do better in terms of content moderation at a large scale and proposes the idea of finding other avenues to make accusations of crimes, such as talking to law enforcement or journalists, rather than tweeting from an account that was created 10 days ago.

15) Jimmy discusses the importance of addressing online abuse, especially towards ordinary people who are not public figures. He describes an experiment where one of Wikipedia's developers received massive abuse for his picture being featured on the website, and how it affected him. Wales believes that addressing this issue within society will become increasingly important, as everyone suffers the pain of online abuse and the feelings of powerlessness and loneliness that come with it. He also discusses the pros and cons of community notes on Twitter and how, when implemented correctly, they can help provide a more nuanced view of certain issues.

16) Jimmy talks about the concept of reality possibly being an illusion, and how he prefers thoughtful discussions over arguments on Wikipedia. He emphasizes how being kind and thoughtful is more important than political views in creating a productive conversation. Wales believes that the makeup of the community is significant in eliminating blind spots in its writing. He notes that while the Wikipedia community tends to be more college-educated tech enthusiasts, it is still a highly diverse community globally.

17) Jimmy discusses the importance of diversity in the Wikipedia community. He notes that although the platform has a significant number of women, they tend to write more about what they are interested in, potentially leading to a lack of coverage of topics they may not be familiar with. Wales stresses the importance of having a diverse range of editors to cover important topics such as the works of award-winning female novelists. He also notes that in politics, it is important to have people of varying beliefs and backgrounds, as long as they are kind and thoughtful in their contributions.

18) Wales discusses the power of kindness in correcting negative behavior on Wikipedia and in real life. He shares a story about a former vandal who became a great Wikipedian after being called out on her behavior and also talks about the importance of having a kind and thoughtful arbitration committee. Additionally, he touches on the beauty of geeks running the best aspects of human civilization, mentioning the example of the time zone file, which is managed by one person who is not paid but volunteered to take charge of it.

19) Jimmy talks about the interesting bots that Wikipedia editors use to help improve the platform. He specifically mentioned a bot that was created to look at commonly misspelled words and then checks the context of the article before flagging it. He also talks about the charity's business model and how its decision not to include ads helps maintain community control, neutrality, and trust. Wales notes how the absence of a business model based primarily on ads ensures that there is no incentive to push clickbait headlines and links to articles with higher ad revenue. He emphasizes that it's this absence of an advertising-based business model that keeps Wikipedia focused on building a platform that's purely for the community and providing nothing but great content.

20) Jimmy discusses his fondness for Wikipedia and the positive feeling he gets from using it. Compared to social media and other sites that may leave him feeling regretful, Wales perceives zero regretted minutes on Wikipedia because of the quality of knowledge and lack of clickbait on the site. He also mentions a similar site, Stack Overflow, but expresses his curiosities about the possible use of GPT-3 on it. Though concerned that people may prefer GPT-3 and Alexa to access Wikipedia's knowledge, he is not troubled by it and believes that if knowledge becomes more accessible, even indirectly, this is ultimately good for the site.

21) Jimmy discusses the potential for a better search experience on Wikipedia by using new technology to extract information faster and easier. He also mentions the importance of grounding, or taking users to a crafted page, rather than journalist websites or news websites, which may have wrong incentives. Regarding controversies around his co-founding of Wikipedia, Wales sees Larry Sanger as an important contributor in the early days and disagrees with Sanger's claim that nobody should trust Wikipedia and that there is only one legitimate truth on any controversial question.

22) Jimmy discusses the importance of grappling with minority viewpoints on Wikipedia, especially in science and politics. He emphasizes that the process of decision-making is contextual and case-by-case and requires openness to correction, change, and challenge. Wales gives an example of a recent dust-up about the definition of recession on Wikipedia, where a routine editorial debate was blown out of proportion due to misunderstanding and sensationalism in the media. He also discusses how the right is more sensitive to censorship and is more likely to highlight anything that looks like censorship.

23) Jimmy addresses accusations that Wikipedia is a biased website, open to government pressure and censorship. Wales defends the website, claiming that it is very balanced and represents many perspectives, and that Wikipedia has never bowed down to government pressure or censorship anywhere in the world. He also explains that the Wikimedia Foundation can't change the content of Wikipedia without causing a massive controversy, and that the site is written by the community.

24) Jimmy discusses the role of government in managing misinformation and disinformation and having conversations with organizations like the CDC and WHO. Wales believes it is inappropriate for a government to ask pointed questions about potential penalties, although a conversation about understanding the information ecosystem and the problem of misinformation is essential for society, particularly around election security. However, it is crucial to note that what the Wikimedia Foundation thinks has no impact on what's in Wikipedia, as it is solely run by volunteers.

25) Jimmy and Lex discuss their distrust of scientific leaders during the COVID-19 pandemic due to issues of communication, arrogance, ego, and politics. Wales argues that leaders in scientific positions like Anthony Fauci had an opportunity to inspire people about the power of science to rapidly develop a vaccine that could save human civilization, but the situation was politicized and made mundane. Wales emphasizes the importance of Wikipedia's neutral point of view, which attempts to show all perspectives and allow people to make informed decisions. They also talk about the harm that the loss of trust in science can cause, which is further amplified by the toxic discourse around vaccines and the pandemic.

26) Jimmy discusses the public perception of COVID-19 and how the media has failed to properly contextualize the risks of the virus for different age groups. He also reads a Reddit comment about the bias in Wikipedia's featured articles selection and shares his views on its validity. Wales explains that topics like World War II are popular on Wikipedia, but it is important to be cautious when putting sensitive topics like Hitler on the front page as it requires a lot of academic research. He mentions the community's responsibility to ensure diversity in the featured articles, and the need to ensure that there is not an over-representation of certain topics like video games.

27) Jimmy discusses his favorite article on the platform, "Inherently Funny Words." The article was initially created as a dumping ground for words that sounded amusing, leading to a deletion debate. However, the page was saved when someone pointed out that it was a legitimate concept in the theory of humor and comedy. He also mentions some obscure pages that he finds interesting and amusing, such as octopolis and the friendship paradox. When asked about any particular struggles they faced while developing Wikipedia, Jimmy admits that he is a pathological optimist and struggles to see them as challenges.

28) Jimmy discusses some of the challenges faced in the early years of Wikipedia, including server crashes and growing pains in the Wikimedia Foundation. He also expresses his faith in communities and how they can emerge and be stable, giving examples from his for-profit Wiki company fandom. Wales predicts that in 10 years, Wikipedia will remain an encyclopedia with improved AI supporting tools for search and discovery and a growing presence in languages of the developing world. He notes that machine translation has improved and is especially useful in economically important languages such as English to Spanish, but still needs more investment for smaller languages.

29) Jimmy discusses the importance of credibility and trust in journalism, particularly with the rise of citizen journalism and the prevalence of fake news. While traditional models of credibility such as major news organizations are still important to many, individuals can also build up their own trust and credibility over time to become a reliable source of information. Wales emphasizes the importance of being passionate about what you do rather than pursuing something solely for monetary gain, as this can ultimately lead to greater success and impact.

30) Wales discusses the concept of success and the meaning of life. He argues that success should not be measured by the wealth of billionaires but rather by the interesting experiences one can have in life. He shares insights into his own life and how he values unique experiences over monetary gain. When asked about the meaning of life, Wales believes that there is no external answer and that it is up to individuals to decide what meaning they will have in their lives. He also reflects on the importance of sustainability and solving long-term human problems, which may be aided by advancements in AI.